I'm leaving.

Not the game, just the raid group.

There are many, many things that have been annoying me lately and I guess I feel it's fair for you to know them so that you will hopefully understand this from my point of view.

A few weeks ago, I managed to piss of a member of Epitaph, I did this by chatting with a friend on my guild's ooc channel. As usual, I won't mention any names. Anyway, I was chatting away to this friend about raids, and I happened to say that I was kinda sick of Karazhan, due to the fact that before I join Epitaph, I was in a raid group called The Pillagers, and we wiped repeatedly on the likes of Moroes, it was a rare day if we got Aran down.
Anywho, due to me saying this, I was told by a certain Epitaph member to "go and join a hardcore group if I was so unhappy". I tried to explain to said member that while I loved Epitaph, I was sick of Kara, that was all.
I then went on to say that I thought taking on new members constantly, all of which are DPS, very few tanks and healers (this was while I was still taking my rogue) was a bad idea and would keep us in Karazhan even longer. I was basically told to not tell certain person that s/he did not know what they where doing, because they did.
I did point out that I had been raiding for 2+ years and I was just trying to help. I was met with stony silence.

So we proceed to the week before last, we are wiping on Moroes, I make countless suggestions, only for them to be ignored. Obviously, certain member is still pissed at me, fine, we eventually down Moroes and carry on. Do you see the pattern here?

I am sick of suggesting things and having them ignored, repeatedly. I know I am not the raid leader, but I have experience in this dungeon, a point I proved along side Neil last week. But hey, that doesn't matter, obviously.

Secondly, we move on to the rules, the rules it seems, will change without any warning and effectively screw up are current progression. *gasps* yes, I said the forbidden hardcore word. Basically, last week we have 4 people in join lead on the dps meter. Due to a rule that almost got implemented last night, 2 of those four almost missed going this weekend. Doesn't seem fair to me. So I kicked up a fuss, got the two people on the raid as they should have been and was met with a stony silence from Certain Member, oh the fun.

Thirdly, yes, the dreaded hardcore word again. Seriously, after raiding Kara for as long as I have, you would want to move on. I love RP, I love Raiding, Hell, I love the two together but I want to get out of Karazhan.

For those who don't know, I'm 4 and half months pregnant, come september I won't be able to raid anymore, so I want to enjoy what time I have able to raid with people I call friends, and I want to see new content. I even dug out my rusty priest to try and help. I tried speaking to certain member last night, admitedly, I was bitching about his/her unfair rule change, but you can probably guess by now the response I got.

And lastly, we could easily start a second group for Kara, for those under-geared and under-experienced, but apparently, this isn't a good idea. certain people would rather remain in Kara permanently it seems. So what happens is we gear up the new-comers, and the old ones perhaps bog off and join better groups. Sad fact but true. Again, I've spoken about this but you all know the response by now.

So in short, for anyone who didn't read all my post, I am quitting because.

1. Raid leaders do not listen to good advice.
2, Unfair and un-unnecessary rule changes.
3. Lack of progression.
4. Too many people wanting to raid yet won't help themselves get geared up.

So yeah, I'll be here for the weekend's raid *if* it goes ahead. After that, I'll be off. I will apologise to a select few people who I feel I may be letting down by leaving, some of you are lovely people and it was a pleasure raiding with you, even if it was in a dungeon I'm sick to the back teeth of. So yeah, see ya.

Edit by Eleora
To clarify, I closed this.

Hey, it's me. Can you expect me to disagree? Doubtful, seeing as I've been there through thick and thin. Remember how Jay dropped her over-geared rogue so that she could heal? I dropped my over-geared elemental shaman so I could level my tank.

I've muddled through with the Pillagers. I've seen everyone else progress. Now, it seems, Epitaph wants to keep the entire group muddied in the ground (read : Karazhan).
Was there really such a problem setting up a base-geared group to start Kara afresh while the more geared and experienced people continued as they were? I mean, we downed Attumen to Aran/Chess with ease, and theoretically the Prince is next! And now we're getting bogged down with more undergeared people?

I'm tired of people making excuses. Epitaph is (was?) progressing. We've the Prince in sight once again, and we want to go for it - how can we be expected to do so if we're constantly re-equipping new people who haven't made a big enough effort to reach the minimum requirements to contribute sufficiently to the rest of the group?

And please, don't mention RP. You can RP anywhere you want, hell you can RP in Karazhan - within reason. I'm not going to RP for 40 minutes while Moroes trash respawns. I am a roleplayer, and I'll challenge anyone who claims otherwise but, damnit, if you're going to claim to raid Karazhan for the umpteenth time then let's fucking PROGRESS. That means:

a) Progress an already equipped team to defeating Prince Malchezzar;
b) Take that group beyond and into Zul'aman;
c) Take a new group through the motions and into early Karazhan;
d) Combine these two groups into a 25-man raiding force in preparation for Naxxramas in WotLK.

It ain't hard, so stop rejecting sound suggestions. As Jay said, we'll be tankin' and healin' Epitaph for the coming weekend but, alas, since solid changes aren't forthcoming...

... we won't be seeing you much longer.

- Neil.

I'd like to add a third voice to this.
We have a group now that WORKS and has progressed, as certain people mentioned wanting. I remember an heated discussion (some might call it agument) with said person about Karazan, and wanting progress, and the gearcheck.
As Jay has said, a group of us HAVE taken this to heart, and now all meet, if not exceed, said gearcheck, and are part of a group that GOT PROGRESS. Certain member who vehmently defended the gearcheck has seemingly done nothing to get their characters up to spec, whilst still complaing about others, indeed directly complaining to me about Elu's gear. WHICH EXCEEDS THE CHECK, and indeed did so in all but one case, which was 0.2% behind the spec
Now it seems the leader(s) of this group want to hold back the exact thing they wanted.
They are also breaking their own rules (ie, first come first served).
So.. I will be at this weekend's raid..
But I'll be going with another with Epitaph as it stands.
If things change, then I will gladly come back.
But... from how things looked tonight, and the complete and utter venom a suggestion got me, I doubt this will be so.
So.. Goodbye to all you lovely people I've been with.
It's been fun.

I too was irritated to say the least regarding the sudden and unnanounced rules change that was only changed back to how it was due to nearly half the raid complaining at the sudden change.
Apparently it was discussed that some others would take mine and Elu's place, but it was not discussed with us. Indeed it was discussed behind closed doors allowing us no input. Or anyone else for that matter.

The group we have works. We've got the tactics, we've got the gear after working damn hard in quite a few cases to beef up our gear to a sufficient level (see Drusk, Mere, Krag, Alrek etc).
Is this elitist? Probably, but we want to progress, not spend week after week going no further than the Operah because people lack gear as they are new members who dont meet the basic requirements.

When the gear check was implemented, I thought 'oh thats a bit serious for a casual group' but it does make sense and indeed, it did help us considerably as it gave us goals to reach. How ever the comments made in the gear check post and the 'Are you unhappy with Epitaph' post were directed at eluziel, quite clearly at him, you didnt need to mention names but you might as well have tried to be sneeky whilst wearing a one man band outfit.
Eluziel's gear allowed him to meet and exceed the gear check in all but one area and that was by a little ammount the matter of 0.5% I belive.
Whilst the person who implemented the gear check and the venemous posts. Thats you Eleora. Didnt meet it in any way apart from having lots of stamina, whilst having the gall to snipe at other people about their gear.

We want to see more than the three operah events or just hear 'Time...never enough time..' and 'I've gone and made a mess' week in and week out, changing the group round now will mean that we are marking time against the same bosses and same mobs.
Yes Kara is a lovely instance but I want to get this place beat, I want to move on to see PFM die and give Kruc his lovely choppy axe, to hear him say 'I refuse to concede defeat..I am a Prince of the Eredar! I...am.......' and eventually go give Gruul hugs, and then ZA.
This is not going to happen due to the current system of 'invite everyone, change the group that works and wipe lots on the same boss.'

I love the folks of Epitaph, they are my guildmates, and friends (even if the SCC lot are damn strange...) and yes I know this will cause tears, strife and me to be on Chris and Vicky's black books. But right now I dont care. I want to do more. I want to go places and see strange and fabulious beasts and then shoot them with a biiiiig gun! Seeing the mobs again and again in the dining hall isnt doing that.
And I am also angry and dissapointed at the fact that the leadership does not listen to ideas and instead goes off in a huff after making venemous replies to a well thought out idea.

I will be there for this weekend, but after that, if things continue the way they are. I will bid you farewell.

First let me say, there's no need for secrecy and false pretences of 'saving face'. Jay is talking about me, I'm not ashamed at all of my actions as I will detail below. Secondly, I will reply to this post point for point. Feel free to skip through if you'd like to.



- You didn't say you were 'kinda sick of Karazhan', you said you were 'sick to the teeth' of it and found it not only boring, but if you could join a raid group that had surpassed it, you would. Imagine, just for a moment, how that made me feel please. When I made this raid group for people like you, admittedly I got gratification from it too of course, but the whole point was to give something back to roleplayers who were too daunted to join the big raid groups or who wanted to preserve an rp atmosphere. I feel that Epitaph has succeeded admirably on both counts, showing those who never thought they would see raid content the 'wonders' contained within, and following a (loose) storyline that was due to come to fruition at Prince. This is not just thanks to me, but thanks to everyone who participated, yes including you.

- I didn't say 'Go and join a hardcore raid group'. I said 'If you don't enjoy it Jay, maybe you should join a more hardcore raid group?" It was not an order, it was advice. Advice that I have always thought you should adhere to, and still do, but of course it's not my decision to make. Why do something you don't enjoy? Your constant focus on progress, no matter the effect it has on the members who have contributed a lot to Epitaph (or did you even stop to think of them?) but are not able to attend every week due to outside the game circumstances, fits the mindset of other raid groups far more than the principles of Epitaph. It is not wrong, but it doesn't suit everyone I'm afraid. Then again, what does? Welcome to the constant dilemma of a raid group leader.

- The way I recall it, and I may have misread but I'm pretty sure I didn't, you were 'suggesting' (And by that I mean, saying it over and over again until someone listened) we were a lot more picky with our recruitment criteria so we could progress to Zul Aman and hopefully the 25 man instances. Fair enough, I would love to see those. But what I was trying to tell you, and was ignored (thus my 'stony silence' after attempting to get it through to you), is that we simply didn't...and still don't really although we have a few more excellent members now...have the numbers to be picky. At that point we had only one healer, not enough DPS who bothered to sign up, and Vicky and I had tried so hard to get more. And yes, frankly, I do know what I'm doing. I never said you didn't, just that I did.
You've been raiding for 2+ years? What has that got to do with it? I raided through all of Zul Gurub, most of Molten Core and some of Blackwing Lair before the expansion...and I have cleared all of Karazhan, half of Gruul's Lair and the bear segment of Zul Aman after the expansion. It has nothing to do with it. There was nothing more to say on the matter for then. As hard as it may be for you to grasp, I am the leader of Epitaph, not you. I appreciate advice I really do, and you and others have given me a fair bit that I have both thanked you for and used to great effect. But the decisions are ultimately mine to make. You don't like them? That's fine, even understandable.

- That week you mention, we wiped once on Moroes (to be expected in a fight that requires very good group coordination). And I'm sorry to say Jay, but your tactic was wrong. We followed mine and it worked. You were suggesting killing Freeman second, and every tactic about the fight says he should be killed last or just ignored for the whole fight. I also knew this from experience, and tried to tell you it repeatedly. That's why I did not listen to you then. Or do you think your tactics are always right?

- Did you ever think you get ignored, because your 'suggestions' stop becoming suggestions and border on whining? Because they do. We all do it, I know I have done in the past, and you are no exception. You have given some very useful tips, such as the hunters only focusing on the last Astral Flare on Curator when he begins to Evocate. I took your advice, it worked, I thanked you for it.
Yes, you have experience in the dungeon. So do I. So do a lot of members. Does yours automatically make you right, and all your tactics right? No, it does not. No more than mine doesn't for me. As for last week, I seem to recall thanking you all for what sounded like a very successful run (one I might add, had quite a few wipes. I wonder whose tactics you were following?). But hey, that doesn't matter, obviously.

- No one has said 'progression' is a "hardcore" word. Heck, Vicky wrote a post about it just last week saying there is nothing "hardcore" about wanting to progress, and that represents my views also. But when it is drummed home over and over again, when every little bit of advice has the agenda of furthering our progress so you are no longer 'bored', it becomes not only disheartening but insulting. I have been contacted by four seperate members, who I'm afraid to say have given just as much to us as you have, concerned about the mindset that has begun to weave its way into our raids. I'm not saying I agree with them, I love the idea of the gearcheck and thanked Neil for it as it has helped us all, but even if I disagree I don't preach to them and say I'm always right. I am trying to help everyone who makes the effort, and just because someone can't get instant uber gear or attend the raids every week like clockwork, it doesn't mean they're not making an effort. True, if someone just couldn't be bothered and still complained, then their views are useless and should be ignored. The members who we have had like that, and yes there have been one or two, were purged.

- Let's focus on what you say here shall we? "Doesn't seem fair to me" "...got the two people on the raid as they should have been" So, if something doesn't seem fair to you, that automatically makes it wrong? Oh please, stop with the self righteous preaching. Vicky and I were deliberating a lot about that certain ruling, and both weren't exactly happy with what we decided. I even offered to get all three of the Hunters together and talk to it about them, but I was met with a..what was the word? Ah yes, a stony silence. Answers were demanded immediately, after incessant nagging from Eluziel to Vicky (not to me, interestingly), and so we had to give an answer. And thus the complaining began again, not just from you mind, because the decision wasn't what you thought was right. I remained silent because frankly, I wanted to put you in your place. But I consider you my friend no matter what you think of me, and I knew no matter what I said it would kick up drama. So I've said it here, as you have. Amerin has offered a lot of help to Epitaph, and she didn't get to go last week even though she signed up in the sign-up thread (which you and Neil didn't, interestingly.) So some might say that's not fair, but does Amerin go about moaning and complaining? No, she had to deal with it. And she's not the only one. That's why Vicky and I thought it would be nice for one of the Hunters to step down for her...but it seems they cared more about their places, as most probably would.

- I think the whole world knows you're pregnant by now. After a certain point, that excuse just stops working. Congratulations, I am truly happy for you, and I'm sure Autumn will be beautiful. But just so you can see things, you are pushing everyone, even those who don't want to, to progress in time? Then you'll just up and leave? You said you thought that a little selfish in game the other day. Well it is. Understandable, but still selfish.
I can't begin to imagine the pain you need to go through in the state you are in, and I don't pretend to, but I'd like to think these complaints are coming from your rational mind (which I believe they are). I thanked you for bringing out Meredithe for healing duty, what more do you want? A medal? Maybe a standing ovation? We've all made sacrifices and changes for Epitaph and for other things in game. I think it's admirable to switch your character to meet others' needs, but it was never asked of you.
Oh and last night, I didn't see you talking to me about anything. All I saw you say was 'good night' for the entire evening. In future if you'd like to talk to me about something, please use whisper. When you're in loads of channels it helps to have the little audio notification to tell you when someone's contacting you. If I had known you were still going on about that ruling, I would have tried my best to explain it. But I did that above so it is done now anyway.

- We could? Please enlighten me how we could start a second group when we barely get enough sign ups for one raid, with only a few dpsers overflowing? And also, I hope you're not talking about me there, because I don't see a problem with starting a second group at all and have never insinuated to the opposite. 'Sad fact but true.'? Really? Has it happened here? No.
Just because it happened in Pillagers, does not mean it would happen here.


To reply to your summarising points:

1. Raid leaders do listen to good advice. Emphasis on 'good', and emphasis on 'advice'. Not 'incessant' and 'nagging'.

2. This one, I do agree on. I do think that ruling was a little unfair. But like I said before, it was forced out of us by people demanding a response then and there. Offers were made for talks about it, but they were ignored. So what else could we do?

3. This is the most ridiculous thing you have said in the entire post. "Lack of progression"? Hah! We got further than almost any raid group has ever done in our very first raid. True, we had about a month of setback and had to start over again, but already after two weeks we are back to Prince again? If you call that a "lack of progression", you are wrong. Plain and simple. What do you want from us? Instant progression into Zul Aman after a few weeks? We have almost cleared Karazhan in a record time and yet you STILL demand more.

4. Too many? Really? Please name them, because I don't see any. There is a difference between being willing to, and actually being able to do something.


There you have my response, I hope I have addressed your concerns.

My one thing to say about all of this would be:


If you think you can do better, then you try it yourself before you point your finger.



Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

EDIT: Actually I do have one more thing to say. I know I'm not perfect and have made some poor decisions. But I also like to think I've made some good ones too. I took a bunch of people who had either not raided before, or had given up trying to raid, and took them almost all the way through Karazhan on the first try. That's what I wanted to do, give people a chance to experience things they couldn't otherwise do.

So I'd like to thank everyone, and I mean every single member, for all they have contributed, given up and done for Epitaph. It means a lot to me and I'm glad you got something given back to you, if only for a short time.

I think the point has been missed.

1) We did great to start with, and then are set back repeatedly re-gearing new DPS.
You sticked a thread providing rules and guidelines for sign-ups, but were prepared to ignore them completely without announcement or discussion.

2) You sticked a thread providing rules and guidelines for sign-ups, but were prepared to ignore them completely without announcement or discussion.

3) Jay's suggestions coming across as whining? They were merely suggestions to be considered - if they are stubbornly ignored, then obviously the person listening gets irritated by it. Are you afraid that they may have worked?

I also knew this from experience, and tried to tell you it repeatedly. That's why I did not listen to you then. Or do you think your tactics are always right?

Isn't that what you're saying? When you don't listen to the people around your or try something differently? Don't be so damned inflexible.

4) How dare you claim that Jay is 'incessantly nagging' or that she's using pregnancy or health issues as an 'excuse'? This just shocks me beyond words for reasons I'll not disclose here. I'm sure others know exactly what I'm talking about.

5)If Amerin isn't complaining, then it's because he/she is abiding by the rules you laid out. If you wanted rotation, you should have discussed, decided and announced it instead of attempting to spring it on people.

6) A second group is created by making EFFORT. It ain't a big word. You gather some more healers, some more tanks and get to it. What, did you expect to just languish in Karazhan forever? We'll need those extra people to get as far as 25-mans anyway.

And a final question : why not reply to Grak and Elu? Or me?

Or is it just easier to pick on a woman?
/shrug

Guess so.

You know what, you're right, you are the leader, a terrible one in my opinion, but the leader all the same. I should have just gone ahead with my orginal plan in the first place. Do you remember it? Neil and I where going to form a raid group after pillagers split, I was going to work along side one of Sanctuary's members to make it fair. But then you said how you wanted to do it, and I told you I couldn't be arsed with the stress. Remember? probably not as it seems you have a selective memory.

Oh, I'm sorry that I have the excuse of being pregnant, heaven's forbid. You have absolutely no idea what I went through to get pregnant, and you know what, I won't tell you. Because unlike certain people, I don't feel the need to complain about everything to everyone. You think that me talking about being pregnant is getting old? wow, just wow.

You consider me a friend? right, I'd hate to see how you treat your enemies. You up and left a damn fine guild because a few epitaph members got sick of wiping in Kara and moved on to bigger and better things. You get your girlfriend to do all the actual work in Epitaph for you, I mean, its Vicky who is recruiting and posting, you won't even join your damned raid groups channel, the one that Vicky set up. You are utterly pathetic in my eyes.

You can remove yourself from our ooc channel as I do not want you there. And on that note, you can remove me from this weekend's raid, I will not be going due to the un-nessessary stress I am being caused by all of this.

And you can start being an actual raid group leader and find a decent healer to replace me.

Oh, and I love the way you only pick my post apart, not the ones posted by the others.

It is rather insulting that you don't respond to the rest of us Chris.
I'd have gone to you, had I know WHO you were online.
You were not in the sanct channel
You were not even in the bloody Epitaph channel.
Vicky was and so I talked to her.
You need to be AVAILABLE AS A LEADER to be talked to.
Besides which YOU DISBANDED EPITAPH, and Vicky took over. Thus, she was the leader I spoke to.
I also got from Steve that Vicky has been complaining in the SCC channel about Epitaph members, among other things. Nice that she brings complaints to those she has problems with eh?

Second as Drusk said... YOU set the rules to sign up. Steve and I stuck to them
YOU AND VICKY broke them by 'discussing' behind closed doors whether or not he and I should go. I like how you didn't just say 'Right, we have much dps, and some haven't gone, can we have volunteers to not go so we can rotate the DPS
YOU KNOW Steve and I would have volunteered to sit out to let someone else go IF YOU HAD ASKED.

Now, thanks to this bullshit and lack of communication and hypocracy, YOU AND VICKY have probably caused the raid to not go ahead this weekend.
AND no doubt have now caused your precious Epitaph to fall apart.

As for Jay complaining about pregnancy..
I'll be blunt
How many fucking times has Vicky used her health issues as excuses for unneeded and venomous attacks against both Epitaph and Sanctuary members? I've been the brunt of numerous myself. True I've also responded in a less than pleasant manner, but I'll tell you this. I could have said a LOT more than I have.

I was going to reply to the others too, but it was a bit too much to write all in one go. I'll do it now though, so you get the responses you deserve.


Neil

I thanked you for offering Drusk as a main tank for us, It was obviously not entirely for us but it was still a gesture much appreciated, as was Jay's with Meredithe. Still is, as far as I'm concerned.

We don't want to keep Epitaph in Karazhan, as enjoyable as many find it, it is only a matter of time until it gets tired and old. But at the same time we didn't want to keep progress as the main emphasis of the raid group, just an important one. You say to not mention rp, and yet that is the main reason why Epitaph was made. You can't mention one without the other. You know full well that by raid roleplaying we don't mean walk through the dungeon, sit talking for 45 minutes after a boss. We've never done that and never will. All it means is that we keep the focus on the atmosphere while doing well pve wise too, which we always have done.

We've been trying to get the well geared team to Prince Malchezzar, but I do see what you mean. It isn't possible without a core group of 'well geared' members who know how to work in synch. Very true, and I reckon we were close to that thanks to the efforts made by everyone.

I agree with the second group idea, the slightly lesser geared (and perhaps lesser attending) members as it seems fair that they still get to go, but perhaps don't go quite as fast as the core one. I see no problem with that, if we had the numbers.

What sign up rules did I ignore, if I may ask? I assume you mean signing up to raids, not the raid group as a whole. As I said in my post neither of us were particularly satisfied with the rota system completely, but we had to come up with an answer then and there and it seemed the most fair at the time.

This isn't about personal pride. I told you that I have taken your advice before...examples include the Curator encouter that I mentionned, and also the usage of Hunters on Aran. These, and others that I can't think of but I know they're there, were invaluable. But unfortunately it is I who had to decide which to go with and which not to, and the ones I choose not to I would rather ignore than start a debate about. I do listen to what people say, just because I don't do what they say or launch into a conversation about it, doesn't mean I don't listen. As I said above, if a tactic or advice is good, I'll use it. If not, I won't. I don't know everything, no one does, and I'll be the first to admit we wouldn't have got as far as we have with my tactics alone. Still, I don't appreciate having them constantly questionned all the time, especially when they work. I hope that's not too unreasonable, and if it is I'm sorry.

I don't know everything, or true much of anything, about this obviously sensitive issue of pregnancy, and on this count I do apologise. I most likely badly worded it, as I often do in the mornings, but I meant that it is a serious element to consider to a degree, but after a while I'd like to think all of your arguements are all based on fact (which they are) rather than high emotions. One of my sisters lost her baby when she was younger, the whole issue of pregnancy plays on my heartstrings and makes me irrational. I really am sorry on this count, and I wish you and your baby all the best now and in the future.

As I said, I do agree that the rota thingy was handled with haste, and to everyone who is displeased with it, we were just trying to find a way to let everyone see the content, and were happy to have the hunters discuss it between themselves. But that wasn't accepted.

Just because you haven't seen me doing it, doesn't mean I haven't been trying to recruit more people. True, Vicky is much better at that than I am, and she has pulled in a lot of talent, but we still don't have enough for two groups. Unfortunately as you know, healers and tanks get picked up or join the larger raiding communities that are more efficient most of the time. We were lucky to have you and Jay respecc/recharacter for us, and for people like Dorgar/Graktar/Alrkeon to step up to take up the slightly more stressful roles. But still, we do not have enough, as much as we've been trying.


Jay again

You're entitled to your opinions about me and about everything. I do remember that time indeed, you misunderstood my post as trying to sabotage your proposed raid group where as I actually didn't read your original post properlly. I saw it more as a request to form a raid group between the two guilds, I missed the part where you actually said you were going to make one. I explained this but as you said, you decided you didn't want to (pretty wise it appears now) and so I tried to make you proud by forming a raid group more rp orientated than Pillagers.

I won't deny that Vicky has done more for Epitaph than I have, no matter what she says. But I never 'got her' to do any of those things, she did them on her own initiative and succeeded until things got more about progress than they did about a close knit rp community. The reason I never joined the channel is because honestly, I didn't want one. I have no doubt it's been a great help and I thank Vicky for being strong where I could not, but frankly I already have far too many channels, and to be honest most things could, and have been, handled via the forums, such as recommended mods and what you need for raids, sign ups etc.

Feel what you like about me, I don't mind and know I probably deserve it. But for what it's worth, I'm sorry you are getting stressed out about this. It is the main reason why it must come to an end.


Elu

I don't know who complained to you about Elu's gear, or the gearcheck, but all my characters (bar Smite, but I wouldn't raid with him) are up to standard there and as I've said numerous times, it has been an invaluable tool to helping members get what they need to start raiding. And in my opinion is not the slightest bit hardcore, just common sense, it is other things that edge toward that standard. Also I seem to recall you complaining about it when it was first implemented. In regards to that, I think it's admirable that you rose above that and tried your very best to get gear/gems to meet and surpass the requirements. This goes out to everyone else who did this too.

I won't repeat about that ruling a couple of days ago as I've explained it already. But I will say this: I did ask Steve about the situation, and it didn't go far. You can't deny you were wanting a response then and there, not saying it's wrong, but I am saying it's true. I do understand the frustration about the ruling, it was something that needed to be thought through more. I think my suggestion about me talking to you, Steve and Amerin about it would have worked. And by the way, I was in the Sanctuary channel.


Steve

You won't be in either of our black books, although I will most likely be in yours unfortunately. As much as I disagree with lots of the points made in this thread, and have argued against them, I do understand where they come from.

The ruling wasn't discussed behind closed doors though. I was literally whispering it to you and justified why I thought Amerin might deserve a spot, and suggested talking to you three about it when she came online. I don't know what happened in the Epitaph channel last night (yes I wasn't there, bad and all that) but it doesn't sound good.

To summarise though, I know no one wants to be stuck in one place forever. There is nothing elitist about this, the thing that has been grating on my mind is not the desire to advance (as I'd hope everyone has that desire) but the constant pressure from certain people to do it, as I explained in my post. You know the real reason I left the guild those weeks ago, and it wasn't mostly about Epitaph. I always respect your opinions as I do everyones' in this thread and out of it.

One thing I will clarify absolutely though is this: The post 'Got a problem with Epitaph?' was NOT aimed at Eluziel. This I promise. It was a general sweeping statement to let everyone know, and we had been getting gripes from about four different members, ones who you and I know are fantastic people, that although we want to advance and gear up people, that's not all we care about. If we had members who sat on their butts all day and night refusing to gear up, but still complaining about this, of course they'd be talked to and removed if they persisted. I'm sure you understand though, that when it's productive and helpful people voicing their concerns, it becomes harder to deal with. That post was made in response to these people, to let them know we want to help them (the offer to do dungeon runs whenever they want them for instance) but will not carry them all through raids.



So yes hate me all you like, I probably deserve it and will take it all. But I will not back down over the fact that striking a balance between progress and a steady, casual pace is almost an impossibility. I made Epitaph to try and bridge this gap, to try and help those who had helped me SO many times (The Claws) in regards to raiding, and those dear to me in The Sanctuary who could not get to go to Karazhan for whatever reasons. It is clear to me now it succeeded for a time, but my poor leadership has bred discontent and I will take the blame fully for this dissolution.

Just know this. It is not an easy task...I never knew how hard it would be...and for what it's worth it has been a fun ride while it lasted.

I checked and didn't see you, and for that I apologise Chris.
And it was Vicky herself who complained about the gearcheck, and while I know you are up to spec, she isn't, and yet she's the one most vehmently trying to get people to sort their gear.

He emailed his response to me:

Alas I am at work so I cant access the internet but fortunately I can send e-mails. I have asked Eluziel to post this for me.


Regarding the Hunter situation on the raid this weekend Eluziel and I were not spoke to regarding the change or the decision to have Amerin come with us. I spoke to Vicky and asked her about it and apparently it was 'discussed' with who might I ask? Not us, not Amerin, not Drusk or anyone else. Just you two. If we had been told about the idea of one of us not going me and Elu would have bickered about who was not going to go. I would have volunteered my place, so would he and then we would have been going 'No, you go.' 'No, you!' ad infinatum.
Apparently you did discuss it and wasnt happy and we was asked and was met with stony silence from me and Elu. Our survey says no. I said to her via whisper that I would drop out and Am could happily take my place. I said that in a whisper to Vicky. She's seemingly forgotten this or negleted to tell you. Quite convenient.

In the Sanctuary we had a Guild within a Guild. That guild consisted of Chris and Vicky. I know you had your own channel, I knew you would log in, leave our OOC channels and say nothing when we said hello IC apart from either a 'Hi' from Vicky and a lovely and amusing limeric from Sigma and then it would be a wall of silence. This guild of two excluded other people, you go along with them to an instance and you would be made to feel like you had just walked in on someone who was having some very plesant 'interaction' and stayed in the room whilst the other two glared at you but were unable to pick up the courage to ask you to leave.

We had a guild within a guild. So why not a Raid Group in a Raid Group. Thats what seems to have happened here.

I dont know what was said between Jay and Chris, I just went along to raids and either roared at stuff or shot at it. I missed out on the decisions and tactics so I wont go into that argument. But I will speak out against your seeming attack on Jay's pregnancy.
She said she was tired or ratty due to hormone imbalances etc which are to be expected in a pregnancy and apparently this is an excuse to have a go at her for a single (and true) complaint.
Vicky on the other hand....yes I know she has medical problems, yes I know what happened in her past and that is totally unforgiveable. But to be honest, its like the boy who cried wolf.

She logs in
[Graktar]: Hey vicky how are you?
[Ele]: Terrible, I ache, hands inflamed, I can barely type, weathers making me ache in the knees etc etc etc.

Next day
[Madassa]: Hey hon
[Ele] *cling* I ache etc etc etc etc.
[Ghandra has joined the channel]
[Ghandra] Hey folks! How are you vicky
[Ele] I ache I'm hurting etc etc

Next day
Repeat and rinse

Day after
And again...

Getting a pattern here? It all gets very tiring and depressing to hear how bad someones life is. When in reality her life isnt that bad. She has a boyfriend who loves her very much, she has a family who loves her just as much, she has a house, internet, friends, food and is not stricken with something terminal. I bet people living in Zimbabwe dont complain as much as Ele and their lives are infiniately worse and laden with enough troubles, fears and woes to make Ele's health issues seem like a minor graze on the knee.

Every day it was the same, every day was torrent of complaints and her talking about how poorly she was. And when ever someone else had something up with them, they could not be worse than Ele. I would love it if (as wrong as this sounds) someone joined our guild and Ele logged in complaining about her aches etc and this happened.

[New Member]: Eleora, my Dad's got cancer. I'm watching him die slowly every day, you think you've got problems?
[Eleora has left the channel]

Vicky lashes out with comments and full blown posts and when asked (by me) why its the same 'i'm aching'. Aching does not give you permit to be an ar5e.
How would anyone like it if I logged in and this happened:
[Graktar] Your all f*$*ng c*%ts and I f***ing hope you die of cancer!
[Assorted guild members] what the hell was that about?
[Grak] Sorry, I'm tired
[Graktar has left the channel]

Whilst ele didnt swear she did make some truly brutal remarks and snide comments and when questioned fell back on the old excuse of aches, inflamed joints etc. As I said, aches is no excuse to be a git.

When ever someone stood up to Ele, or said a midly disparaging remark she would leave the channel and blank us. Making us all feel like we had all done something wrong as she was in the Guild chat but would refuse any contact. Quite a few people are getting fed up with Ele's 'woe is me!' approach, and no, its not just me and Eluziel and you have the gall to snipe at Jay who is pregnant...nice...really really nice.

Regarding PROGRESS! Kara is a lovely instance but I want to move on from there as does everyone and the constant addition of new people and dispersal of a group that works means were marking time.

Eluziel suggested this to vicky last night and her response was a venmious post on the Epitaph channel about people telling her how to run the group. He wasnt telling her how to run it, just offering a suggestion based on common sense. The group we had last week worked. Worked very very well and you would change that, thus marking time in Kara as we gear folks up again.
This was suggested and Vicky did her usual rampage off the off the rails and treat what ever was said or suggested as if someone had just grossly offended her family and then desecrated a family grave or collection of ashes by urinating in them.

Oh and group 2

Tanks
Luyu
That BE pally that offered to tank this weekend who's name I cant recall

Healing
Tamie
A level 70 priest who's going to join us soon

DPS
Malice
Derrig
Moonstone
Korachee
Amerin
1 More DPS

Are you done with bitching about me Elu? Making this personal? And Steve for that matter too.

In case you hadn't noticed, Chris and I are not one being. He does not speak with my voice, nor mine with his. Unlike a certain two people I know.

Don't you dare bring me into it yet. I had no idea what Chris was going to post; I haven't had a chance to read everything yet.

Leave me out of it, at least until I've had a chance to read, digest and respond. Then you can bitch at me with reason if needsbe.

I simply posted my own opinion and what Steve sent me to post, Vicky.
He and I do not speak with one voice either. His opinions are his, mine are mine. They just seem to agree.

Sad...friends mad at friends again. And over what? A Game. I though Epitaph was supposed to be about fun...and letting those of us who will never get a chance to raid to raid.

I am...I am just really shocked at all the things being flung about. I really do not know how to reply.

Either way...I am in it for the long haul. I may never get the runs I need to get the equipment I need...because it is only in the healing bonuses I lack...and I need equipment for that. but I am staying, because I can't do hard core raids. I am on Dial up...so raids are hard to begin with. It is that reason I repsec to holy for raids. I can heal better on Dial up than DPS. (And despite this I do a damn good job both DPS and healing in normal instances) And I also changed to support Epitaph and two people I consider to be friends.

I am speechless...

Tam

This has, as someone pointed out to me, spread from trying to sort problems to personal attacks, and I'm one who has done this.
For this I'm sorry.
Here is not a place to vent persona feuds. Thus I won't comment on them any more.
Point is..
after this weekend, I will be out of Epitaph.

I understand Tams, and thank you for bringing a voice from the casual crowd into the discussion. I didn't want any of this, but it seems it has been on an unavoidable spiral for a few weeks now. At the moment it doesn't seem like we will recover from this, unless enough people want us to, but your post has given me reason to try. The same thought has been running through my mind also 'Why, over a stupid game?' (well it's not stupid, but you know what I mean), no matter how much fun people try to inject into it, when it comes to raiding especially, things like this will always arise it seems.

And what Vicky says is true, we do not speak as one voice, she had nothing to do with what I've written, as I often do not have anything to do with what she writes. I'll let her write for herself, as I know she'll word it much better than I ever could. Of course I'll always support her, but if I say something she disagrees with, she'll bloody well disagree I'm sure. ~^

Noo you didn't Elu, it was something I said that was mistaken for a personal attack that did it.

I think the whole thing has gone kaploofie because of confuddled communication, and people misunderstanding intentions (veeery easy to do via text)

Oh, and calling me a liar Steve?

For christ's sake. I've told you numerous times that that post was not aimed at Eluziel in any way, shape or form. I'm not mentioning the name of the person who it was aimed at. It's not fair to them.

Unlike someone I know, I don't kiss and tell.

<sigh> I don't understand why I became the target of this post. This post is Jay and Neil's, not here to bitch. My apologies for my own posts.

Jay, I'm really sorry about your decision.. I didn't get a chance to say earlier, I'd had an e-mail through and after reading what was said here, I was a little upset and not thinking straight.

I'd like to speak to you guys later if I may. It's up to you.

As chris said the whole thing has gone boom. Over what, a bunch of pixels. Really stupid and I know I didnt help (I didnt add fuel to the argument I napalmed it) and for what its worth I am sorry.